If voting is a legitimate way to run a society, and if a society should be "run" at all, shouldn't all the people affected by the policies that the puppeticians will enact have a say in the outcome?
Who cares if "illegal aliens" vote? The policies affect them as much as anyone. If they are living here they should have a say. And there is no legitimate way to declare anyone "illegal", anyway.
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Kent,
ReplyDeleteSo should citizens in China be allowed to vote in internal USA elections?
Our policies affect them.
Citizens of Mexico? Iraq? Iran?
Where do we draw the line in who gets to vote in our system?
I live in one city, I can not see how it would be reasonable for me to vote on the tax rate in the city next to me. Or on a state referendum in another state?
The body politic belongs to those who agree to abide by the decisions of the entire body. Illegal aliens have already shown they will not accept decisions regarding it.
I often don't "abide by the decisions of the entire body" myself, Bob-so?
ReplyDeleteIn case you missed it, undocumented immigrants live HERE, not in China or Iran-I'm not sure what you are getting at with that one. Is a piece of paper issued by a bureaucrat really that important to you?
Besides, who is offering illegal aliens voting rights? No one that I'm aware.
Let's ask another question, Bob, would it MATTER if Chinese voted in US elections? Personally, I'm all for the poor bastards that are potential smithereens in Iran or elsewhere being permitted to vote against their smithereenhood- not that anyone can ever really vote for peace, mind you.
What is it that gets you so bent out of shape about me hiring a guy to mow my lawn?
Mike,
ReplyDeleteThe difference is there is a penalty when you fail to abide by the decision. A penalty you freely accept. An illegal alien voting in the election has no penalty.
Next, what difference does it make if they are here or overseas. Kent was pointing out that they have a stake in what happens here. Well so do the people in China (guess who holds much of our debt?) and elsewhere.
But they aren't members of our society. So why should they get a vote in how we structure or run our society?
What is it that gets you so bent out of shape about me hiring a guy to mow my lawn?
Sorry but that is a straw man argument. Who said anything about who mows your lawn.
The discussion is about who votes for raising/lowering taxes. Who votes for the person budgeting for road repairs and military expenditures.
Bob S.- First of all, I don't think anyone has a right to vote to tax another person or to prohibit another person's consensual actions. Never ever ever.
ReplyDelete"So should citizens in China be allowed to vote in internal USA elections?"
Yes. If "laws" are on the ballot that would place embargoes against the Chinese people, or harm them in some other way with some counterfeit "law" (or empower politicians who would do so), then - if anything is to be voted on like this - they deserve a say.
"Where do we draw the line in who gets to vote in our system?"
"Our" system? It isn't my system. I don't pretend I have any authority to rob you or outlaw your consensual behavior, and no system I would be any part of would pretend that kind of thing was alright.
"I can not see how it would be reasonable for me to vote on the tax rate in the city next to me. Or on a state referendum in another state?"
Then you don't live in a place similar to where I live. I live in a small town on the Texas side (barely) of the Texas/New Mexico line. Any shopping I do is done in New Mexico in the larger city. Why shouldn't I have any say in the taxes that are added to my purchases there? The state line is an arbitrary fiction. I see no proof that anything real changes as I drive from my house to the store.
"The body politic belongs to those who agree to abide by the decisions of the entire body."
I don't consent. So can I opt out? Or are you one of those "if you don't like it, move to Somalia" folks?
"Illegal aliens have already shown they will not accept decisions regarding it."
I thought you said that "our laws" and "our system" don't apply to residents ("citizens") of other countries? How can "we" pass "laws" that bind them or make them "illegal"? "Laws" that violate Natural Law are not laws at all. And immigration "laws" do violate natural law.
"The difference is there is a penalty when you fail to abide by the decision. A penalty you freely accept."
ReplyDeleteNo, I don't.
"So why should they get a vote in how we structure or run our society?"
Why should anyone? Society doesn't need to be "run"- in fact, you can't "run" a society. But you can ruin one by trying to run it. Self-organization works, central planning fails. And, central planning is evil anyway.
"Who votes for the person budgeting for road repairs and military expenditures."
No one has the right, or the authority, to spend other people's money. No matter how many "votes" they get. Theft is theft, and calling it "taxation" doesn't change the nature of the act. Roads should NOT be a government monopoly, and neither should the military. Neither is important enough that you should be allowed to kill people to pay for them.
Kent,
ReplyDeleteYou pretty much covered it, and a good job, too.
A man should be able to move anywhere on this planet that he thinks might improve his situation, and he damn sure shouldn't have to beg anyone's permission to do it.
Dave