When I have expressed my opinion that humans are born as "blank slates"; that such things as "gods and governments" are then scribbled onto their minds, I usually get one of two responses. Those who agree with me, or who disagree with me, on both counts don't usually say anything.
Those who cling to statism will often say they agree that atheism is probably the default setting for religion, but that humans "obviously need government, otherwise why do they always set one up?".
Those who cling to magical thinking will often agree that statism must be indoctrinated into children, but that "people need God, otherwise they wouldn't have such a driving need to learn about Him."
These responses make me believe I am on the right track. Those who are heavily invested in a particular notion look for any reason to defend it, but others, who are more able to look at the situation rationally, see the truth.
I disagree with you that humans are born as a blank slate: this is a discredited ideology which is disproven by Neo-Darwinism and evolutionary psychology. As it turns out, we have PLENTY of mental biases and values that are attributable to human nature itself.
ReplyDeleteHowever, that does not mean that they include statism or religion as such. Our idea of statism and religion are far too complex to be reflected in human nature, and it's obvious that no one would *naturally* leap to their conclusions. It can be argued with a lot of evidence that the religious impulse is natural, and that dominance/submission based societies are natural, but that's about as far as one could get.
Kent...Your case that we are "blank
ReplyDeleteslates" at birth does have some
truth behind it...But the mental
conditioning by our parents starts
almost immediately...We become
products of our own environment
until the time in our lives when we decide to accept or question
what has been taught to us...All of us choose a "religion" sooner
or later...It can be Secularism,
Statism,Darwinism or any other
philosophy that we find to be
"convenient" for the life-style
that we have chosen to accept...
Christianity scares the ignorant
among us because it clearly draws
a line between "good and "evil"...
There have been those (like myself)
who have found the "truth" and
decided to follow the "one true
God"...Then there are those who
find it much "easier" to follow
any one of the "little gods" out
there...Authoritarianism can fall
into this particular category...
Even some Christians have made the
fatal mistake of also "worshipping
the state" because they have mis-
understood Biblical teachings...
I can't help what other people do
and I can only speak for myself
here: I am a firm believer in the
"Ten Commandments" and the "Bill
of Rights"...I am an "anarchist"
because there is no such thing as
a "government" the glorifies God!
These are the choices I made long
ago and it's a "system" that has
worked for me...I may have been
born a "blank slate",but the words
that have been written on that
surface ever since speak of only
"truth" and "freedom"...
Christianity is an authoritarian lie, get on with it already!
ReplyDeleteFrancois...The sewer lines of the
ReplyDeleteworld are over-flowing with your
type of "rational/intellectual"
thought...The REAL "authoritarian
lie" is the one that you are
living yourself...Lord,spare me
from hearing another cliche from
a self-proclaimed expert on the
human race!
If you're so high and mighty, can you tell me, what authoritarian lie am I living?
ReplyDeleteFrancois...I suspect from your
ReplyDeleteverbal attacks on my "religion"
and your misguided "high and
mighty" assumpions that you are
likely living the "lie" of
"secular humanism" or a similar
atheist philosophy...Whatever the
case,you have already made up your
mind about everything and made your
choices a long time ago...Respect-
ing our differences in a forum
discussion is key here...If you
are itching for a fight about my
beliefs,you are going to be very
disappointed...Bumping heads will
get neither of us anywhere...I've
"bumped" with the best of your
kind,so I would advise you to not
"wake the sleeping giant"...Also
this is not the place to get into
a debate that has little to do
with Kent's "blank slate" subject!
You have already made your "case"
in your very first comment...I have made mine...It's time to move
on...Think of me any way that you
wish...I have NEVER cared about
anyone's opinion about my character
and I'm not about to start now...
I am not a humanist, and I don't want to "fight" you. All I am saying is that Christianity is an authoritarian lie. If you don't like it, tough: but stop preaching an authoritarian lie.
ReplyDeleteStay in the fucking closet like Jesus asked you to!
My oh my,Francois...Such hostility!
ReplyDeleteThat hole you are digging yourself
into is getting very deep now...
Why are you so insistent that you must gloat all the time? Are you insecure?
ReplyDeleteFrancois...The intellectual
ReplyDeletehonesty is fading fast in
here...Good-night,my friend...
Have fun digging...
Tell me when you want to have an actual discussion and not just gloat over rand knows what. I have no idea what you're going on about.
ReplyDeleteFrancois...I have done a little
ReplyDeleteinvestigating at your blog in
order to find out exactly where
you are coming from...I think I
have a pretty good idea now...I
have absolutely no time to listen
to your "rational" thought and
your ridiculous assumptions about
my personality...It is like we
are from two different planets
and therefore everything will be
lost in the translation...I have
already warned you about the
fruitless act of "bumping heads"...
So,let's call it a draw and call
it a night...Since you have "no
idea what I'm going on about",this
only proves my point about "getting
nowhere" in this complicated
discussion...To understand my
"language" you must first believe
in God and his Son,Jesus Christ...
More than likely you won't do that
and so the "translation" will
continue to be "lost"...My job is
to report the "Good News"...NOT to
debate with "enlightened" people
who dabble in anti-Christian
foolishness...
I didn't mean to get an argument started. I have mentioned my beliefs before. I do believe people have instinctive "programming" for simple biases, and part of that may be a desire to follow a leader. Rulers are NOT leaders.
ReplyDeleteAs far as Christianity goes, I think it disproves itself in the very beginning of the Bible. IF you accept the Bible as accurate history. As the story goes, God told Adam and Eve they could eat from any tree in the Garden of Eden except for the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". They did and He punished them. The problem is, until they had eaten from that tree they could not have been expected to know that it was "bad" to disobey God. Now if they had eaten the fruit a second time and been punished for THAT time, it would have been reasonable.
Kent...Assuming that we are on the
ReplyDelete"same page" here about the Bible
being "accurate history",Satan was
also a key player in this story...
He tempted Eve to eat the for-
bidden fruit...Eve in turn tempted
Adam...When God talked to Adam
about disobeying Him,Adam "passed
the buck" to Eve...The rest,as they say,is "history"...The whole
story of Mankind is all about
playing the "blame game",Satanic
temptation and rebelling against
our Creator...Here we are in 2008
and the same old story is still
being followed by humans...All
because God gave us FREE WILL...
There will be those who will always
"believe" and those who won't...
"Judgement Day" is coming for
EVERYONE someday (believe it or
not!)...We'll see how much of a
"lie" Christianity has been...
Until that time,I'll still take
the "Jesus Deal" and all of it's
"bonuses" because I've got nothing
else to lose...I'm sure you will
agree that it's ALL about making
a PERSONAL CHOICE...It seems that
Francois,you and I have already
made our "life's decision" long
ago...So for now,let us agree to
disagree and go in peace...
What I am saying about Adam and Eve is that they were being punished for something that they could not have known was wrong until after the fact. Any other influence, from Satan or a little bird, was irrelevent.
ReplyDeleteIt is like going into a building that has a sign indicating it is a private business, and when you are deep inside, being told it is a top-secret government facility and you will need to go through metal detectors and security to get out, and the penalty for having a gun is death. There were no signs posted on the entrance and you could not have been expected to know, and being a reasonable person, you carry on a daily basis. It doesn't matter if there is a guy hanging out by the door giving you false information or not. The whole thing was a set-up from the start.
The doctrine of the blank slate is also self-contradictory in its core nature, since a blank slate could have no ability to learn. If the blank slate had an ability to learn, it would not be a blank slate by definition.
ReplyDeleteThe bottom line here is that God
ReplyDeletetold Adam and Eve NOT to eat the
"forbidden fruit"...They in turn
DISOBEYED God's order...Of course
one MUST have to believe the
Bible to accept my points...
Anyone who has a problem with
"authority" will rationalize the
story to death,just to reach
another excuse to rebel against
God's form of authoritarianism...
Rebels simply do not like to be
ordered around by anyone...Being
one myself,I should know! As far
as this "blank slate" subject,I
believe they CAN be taught (as
I've said before in an earlier
comment)...I will also add that
"blank slates" DO have FREE WILL...
Which is what this long-winded
discussion REALLY boils down to:
EVERY "comment" on this page is
a case of somebody's "free will"
to choose whatever they wish to
believe...It is obvious that there
are NO "blank slates" in this
particular forum...Perhaps we
are thinking a little too much
about it all...Whether we were
"blank slates" or not,we can't
remember that far back anyway!
So,in reality,does what we have
forgotten REALLY matter now??